Facebookgesprek oor eindtydsienings

Hennie Mouton

21 Augustus 2023

Eindtydsienings

Hierdie is ‘n meningspeiling van gelowiges se eindtydsienings, aan die hand van 6 vrae. My antwoorde kan dien as ‘n formaat, en kan gekopieer en gewysig word soos jy dit sien, en dan as kommentaar hieronder geplaas word. Ek versoek dat slegs gelowiges wat ernstig oor die waarheid van die Bybel is, kommentaar lewer. Moenie lang verduidelikings gee van jou antwoorde nie; dit kan elders gebeur.

1. Wanneer was, is of kom die 1000 jr-vrederyk?
2. Wanneer was, is of kom die 70ste sewetal van Daniël?
3. Wanneer kom die finale antichris relatief tot die wederkoms?
4. Wanneer sal ware gelowiges Jesus tegemoet vaar in die wolke?
5. Wanneer sal die finale oordeel wees relatief tot die 1000 jr-vrederyk?
6. Wanneer het of gaan Jesus se koninkryk kom?

My antwoorde:

1. Die 1000 jr-vrederyk kom direk ná Jesus se wederkoms en lê dus in die toekoms. Opb 19 en 20 (verse 2 en 3 in besonder) spel dit die duidelikste uit, maar feitlik elke Ou Testamentiese profetiese boek beskryf dinge wat nog nie gebeur het nie en waarskynlik net toekomstig in die vrederyk kan pas. Bv. Jes 2:3/Mig 4:1-3. Kyk ook Opb 2:25-27.

2. Die 7 jaar van die 70ste sewetal was rondom 70 nC toe Jerusalem verwoes is en die gelowiges die berge in moes vlug. Dan 9:26 en 27 is ter sprake. In Mat 24:34, Mrk 13:30 en Luk 21:32 verwys Jesus na die verdrukkings wat sal gebeur in die geslag van die mense met wie Hy besig is om te praat.

3. Die finale antichris kom enkele jare voor die wederkoms. 2Tes 2:7-10, Sag 12:9-10, Opb 19:19-20.
4. Ware gelowiges wat nog op aarde leef op daardie tydstip, sal Jesus tegemoet vaar in die wolke met Sy wederkoms. 1Tes 4:15-17.

5. Die finale oordeel sal direk ná die einde van die 1000 jr-vrederyk wees. Opb 20:10-12. Slegs ongelowiges word dan geoordeel en veroordeel want op daardie tydstip is alle gelowiges reeds by Jesus in Sy heerlikheid. 1Kor 15:51-55 wys dat alle gelowiges met Jesus se wederkoms (afgestorwe en steeds lewend op daardie tydstip) verheerlikte liggame sal kry en die dood geen effek meer op hulle sal hê nie. Kyk ook 2Tim 2:18 wat die liggaamlike opstanding bevestig en dit sterk veroordeel dat sommige mense beweer het dat die opstanding al plaasgevind het (al weet ons nie hoedanig hulle dit beskryf het nie).

6. Jesus se geestelike koninkryk het gekom met die uitstorting van die Heilige Gees net na Sy hemelvaart, maar Sy aardse koninkryk sal kom ná Sy wederkoms. Joh 18:36 verwys na Sy geestelike koninkryk. Let ook op Jesus se antwoord oor wanneer die koninkryk van Israel weer opgerig gaan word in Hand 1:6-8. Hy sê nie dat dit nooit gaan gebeur nie – dis betekenisvol. Met die aanvang van die nuwe hemel en nuwe aarde (ná die 1000 jr-vrederyk) gee Jesus Sy koninkryk terug aan God die Vader. 1Kor 15:22-28.

Gee asb. jou antwoorde op die 6 vrae, nie lang besprekings nie, in die kommentare hieronder.

Fred Oberholzer

Op vraag 3 sê die Bybel die heerskapy van die Antichris is bestem om 7 jaar te duur maar dit word verkort sal net 3.5 jaar want die mens sal dit nie kan uithou nie.

Rykie Zwiegelaar

Ek is besig met Riekert Botha se boekie oor Openbaring wat vir my nogal sover die mees logiese is. Hy behandel dit ook op YouTube.

Hennie Mouton

Ek ken Riekert Botha se Openbaring-video’s baie goed. Baie daarvan is uitstekend, maar ek verskil van hom veral oor Opb 19 en 20. Ek het al enkele e-pos/media-gesprekke met hom probeer voer, maar hy het dit laat doodloop. Riekert se antwoorde op my vrae sou waarskynlik die volgende wees:

1. Die 1000 jr-vrederyk is nou, en lê tussen Jesus se 1ste koms en Sy wederkoms.

2. ? (Rykie, laat weet as jy Riekert se antwoord hierop ken)

3. Die finale antichris kom enkele jare voor die wederkoms.

4. Ware gelowiges wat nog op aarde leef op daardie tydstip, sal Jesus tegemoet vaar in die wolke met Sy wederkoms.

5. Die finale oordeel sal direk ná die einde van die 1000 jr-vrederyk wees, gelyktydig met Jesus se wederkoms.

6. Jesus se geestelike koninkryk het gekom met die uitstorting van die Heilige Gees net na Sy hemelvaart, maar Sy aardse koninkryk sal nooit kom nie. Die nuwe hemel en nuwe aarde sal die finale en ewige bedeling wees.

Douglas Bruce Sharp

Richard Geer is the best expert on this and I know he studied all the different points of view. He likes the amillennial idea. We can have our opinion but it isn’t going to influence God’s actions. We will be either right or wrong.

Hennie Mouton

Thanks Douglas Bruce Sharp, can you give us Richard’s short answers to the 6 questions:

1. When was, is or will the millennium be?

2. When was, is or will the 70th week of Daniel be?

3. When will the final antichrist come, relative to Jesus’ 2nd coming?

4. When will true believers ascend to Jesus in the clouds?

5. When will the final judgement be relative to the millennium?

6. When did or will Jesus’ kingdom come?

Hennie Mouton

I’m busy with Richard per email discussing his views and my reasons for not agreeing with all his views, but here are his views, though shortened by myself not to exceed the letter limit of FB:

1. When was or will be the Millennium?

I am in agreement with the overwhelming majority reform position in this matter in that I believe the church age is the time of the Millennium. Compare John 5:24-29 with Rev. 20:4-6. Two resurrections: first one spiritual (notice how it is the souls of men not the bodies of men that are raised during this millennial period), the second one physical (from their graves). First resurrection: now (starting at Jesus’ earthly ministry), second one much later (after the thousand years). First one the second death (lake of fire; Hell) has no power. This is being born again. The second resurrection encompasses both: eternal life or eternal condemnation depending on how life was lived in the earthly body. Many other scriptures can be used, but I’m trying to be brief. One last thing to note is that the early church by the vast majority believed that the church age was the millennium and many thought the thousand years was a literal number. This changed after a literal thousand years had passed. but it should be noted that many were not of a literal bent and viewed this number symbolically much earlier, taking this period to mean a long, but finite number of years and would end at Christ’s 2nd coming. … One last thought is that I believe that Matt. 24 deals primarily with that generation from Christ’s death until the diaspora which occurred in 70 AD, 40 years (that generation) after Christ’s crucifixion. Matthew 25 deals with the period after that (the millennium). The long delay.

2. When was or will the 70th week of Daniel be?

I believe the 70th week follows consecutively from the 69th week with no gap in between them.
I have never been a fan of gaps in scripture at all. Don’t like them in the chronologies, the genealogies, between Gen. 1:1 & 1:2, the period of the judges, and certainly not the supposed gap of over two thousand years and counting between Daniel’s 69th and 70th week. This concept is needed because there is no basis for any period of 7 years anywhere else in scripture. So this passage is used to justify the doctrine of the Great Tribulation of 7 years. Daniel 9:24-27. I am here speaking only of numbers of years, not other scriptures used to prop up this supposed tribulation, but which are entirely absent of the specific 7 year time period.
This also forces the idea that this prophecy concerns both Christ AND Antichrist whereas I believe it deals only with Messiah the Prince, that is, Jesus Christ. I think that the 70th week begins at Jesus’ baptism. It continues for 3 1/2 years (middle of the 70th week. John’s Gospel is most clear as to the length of time Jesus ministry was with mentions of Passovers at different times. Matthew, Mark and Luke are not as clear. He then makes an end of sacrifice and offering by His own sacrifice on the cross. Heb. 10:11-18. The week then continues for another 31/2 years ending just before Cornelius’ household gets filled with Holy Spirit. I have never seen the need to make this about Christ and Antichrist when it is clear it is all about only Messiah the Prince. If there were 2 princes, even the constructs of language would be compelled to add a clarifier, like “another prince”, “a separate prince”, or “a different prince” or some such identifier to tell us that this was indeed talking about someone different than Messiah the Prince which is the only Prince so far mentioned. …

3. When will the final Antichrist come, relative to Jesus’ second coming?

The short answer to this is that I don’t really know when the final Antichrist will appear, but again I believe, as do the vast majority of the Reformers that the office of the Papacy was Antichrist and that the Pope was the Man of Sin. From Jan Huss to John Wesley the consensus seems to be virtually universal. Luther, Knox, Calvin, Melancthon etc. all considered the Pope as antichrist. Now that doesn’t mean that this is true just because these men all agreed on this but it does make me at least wonder why they came to this conclusion. Haley’s bible handbook in the earlier editions is especially useful in looking this up in a thumbnail sort of way.
Some clarification of different terms that get conflated into the name Antichrist, might be useful here in actually understanding why the reformers came to the conclusions that they did.

a. The Little Horn in Daniel 7: He comes out of the 4th empire which is Rome as most agree to, myself included. The pope is preeminently a Roman ruler of the church.

b. The Man of Sin: in 2 Thess.2:1-4 He exalts himself over all that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sits as God and sits in the temple of God. He usurps the position of God. In calling himself the head of the church the pope usurps the clear statement in Colossians 1:18. All this, popes in history have done repeatedly. We must understand that the temple is a term that is always used of the church, individually or corporately, once Jesus condemned the physical structure in Jerusalem saying that not one stone will be standing upon another. The word temple of God was never used again for the physical building. Compare 1Cor. 3:17: 6:19 w/ 9:13 for example.

c. Antichrist: Found in the 1st and 2nd letters of John is the only place this term is used and especially in 1John 2:18-20 Tells us that antichrist comes out from among us; that is the church, and that many antichrists have already come. This is still the first century when this was written. But your question is when will the FINAL Antichrist come. That I cannot answer with certainty I can only look to who it is at the moment and who fits all the criteria of scripture.

d. The Beast and the False Prophet Rev. 13 and 17. First there are two beasts spoken of in Revelation 13 one emerges from out of the sea and one out of the earth. The Beast out of the sea seems to be talking about a worldwide geo-political system especially when we compare this beast with the four beast in Daniel, and chapter 13 with 17 of Revelation. It is the second beast that is of interest to your question. Again this looks suspiciously like the office of the pope in that it has two horns—not like the devil, but like the lamb (Jesus) but speaks like the Dragon (the devil) …

4. When will true believers ascend to Jesus in the clouds?

At the sound of the last trump. There are 7 trumpets that sound in the book of Revelation. The voice of the archangel the Lord will descend with a shout. It is at this time that we will be changed and raised in an incorruptible new body to meet the Lord. So the short answer is at the 2nd coming no 7 year waiting period. 1 Cor.15:51-55; 1Thess. 4:15-17.

5. When will the final judgement be relative to the millennium?

Since I believe that the millennium is the church age and that the physical resurrection occurs at the return of Christ, it follows that very soon after the millennium the final judgement will occur.

6. When did or will Jesus kingdom come?

During Jesus earthly ministry Jesus repeatedly would tell His disciples and those listening that the kingdom of God is at hand. That was over 2 thousand years ago and He, Jesus was telling us that the kingdom had begun and it has remained until the present day. Of course this is a spiritual manifestation according to Paul in Ephesians 2:1-7. In other words, being born again. This is actually truly true now in spirit, to be fully revealed at the consummation of the age at the resurrection of the body.

I hope this helps, even though this is not an exhaustive overview of your questions, you at least know what my thoughts are as well as a few reasons for those thoughts.

Douglas Bruce Sharp

Hennie Mouton It will be interesting what you come up with. I have not made it a priority to commit to one point of view but to watch the signs.

Hennie Mouton

Douglas Bruce Sharp I was for a long time convinced of a-mil, but the many unfulfilled prophecies (of course there are many fulfilled ones) in the Old Testament started convincing me otherwise.

Yvonne Van Dyk

1. The Mellennial (Messianic) Kingdom will begin just after the battle of Armageddon (Joel 2 verse 1; Isaiah 13 verse 9; Zephaniah 1 verses 14-16) at the end of the 7-year tribulation. This battle of Armageddon happens when Jesus physically returns to earth and destroys His enemies with one word from His mouth. Revelation 19 verse 15(a) Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations

2. The 70th week of Daniel is the last week of the 70 weeks prophecy (which was determined for the Jews, Daniel 9:24) that must still be fulfilled. Daniel could not see that the gentiles (non-Jews) were also part of God’s plan of redemption as it was a secret (mystery). He also did not see that there was a gap of±2,000 years (present church period) in his vision between the end of the 69th week (Jesus’s crucifixion) and the final week. Jesus also refers to this week when He talks about Daniel’s vision and the coming Antichrist (abomination of desolation) standing in the holy place (future 3rd temple) in Matt 24 verse 15. Also refer to Daniel 9 verse 27, Daniel 11 verse 31; Daniel 12 verse 11; 2 Thessalonians 2 verses 3-4

3. The Antichrist is seen by John in the beginning of the 7-year tribulation (Rev 6 verse 2) as the rider on a white horse. Daniel 12 verse 1b and Matt 24 verse 21 mentions the tribulation. In his prophetic discourse, Jesus said in Mark 13 verse 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

4. The believers will meet Jesus in the clouds when He fetches His bride with the rapture and they are snatched away to heaven. 1 Thessalonians 4 verses 16-17 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. In the Greek text the word HARPADZO is used, meaning ‘caught up’ while in Latin the word RAPTURO is used. This is also where the English word ‘rapture’ comes from.

Thessalonians 2: verse 6-8 And now you know what is restraining, that he (Antichrist) may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He (the Holy Spirit indwelling the Christians on earth) who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one (Antichrist) will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The rapture is a mystery, an unknown event. 1 Corinthians 15 verses 51-52 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (It is also what is known as the first resurrection of the dead).

5. At the end of the thousand-year (millennium) reign, all unbelievers (those who have died over the centuries) will be resurrected. This is the first resurrection of unbelievers. Revelation 20 verse 5(a) But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. It is also referred to as the Great White Throne Judgement of the unbelievers. Revelation 20 verses 11-15.

6. Jesus will reign on the earth during the millennium. It is a Jewish period during which God fulfil all His promises to Israel and re-establishes the Jewish feasts and customs. Isaiah 66 verse 23 And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me, says the LORD. When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him [Matt 25: 31-32(a)].

Hennie Mouton

Yvonne, die belangrike saak waaroor ek van jou verskil, is die herinstel van die Joodse feeste en gewoontes want baie daarvan is vervul in Christus, soos natuurlik ook die offers. Maar ek sal DV in e-posse daaroor met jou kommunikeer.

Daan Malan

Hennie Mouton, ek stem nie met jou saam met die fisiese letterlike 1000 jaar nie, en die sg wegraping nie, ek is Gereformeerd, maar was 15 jaar predikant op Lindley en Steynsrus, waar ons in die Wes Vrystaat n klomp Gereformeerde lidmate gehad het wat halfpad Chiliasties was. Ek moes as jong proponent Daniel en Openbaring byna uit my kop uit leer, en het na vele kommentare se deur werk vasgesteek by “More than concarers” / “Meer as oorwinaars”, van Hendriksen. PUIK, PUIK, PUIK, kommentaar en UITLEG. Al verskil jy, Lees dit, as jy kan!

Ek is oortuig dat ons die wederkoms tussen 2030 en 2035 kan verwag. Satan self, die brullende leeu, is reeds losgelaat/ontbind.

Die profesiee dat Satan toegelaat sal word om al die volke, stamme, tale en nasies te verlei, het pas nou vir n Eerste keer, (na die bou van die die toring van Babel), in vervulling gegaan, met Covid, toe alle volke, stamme. tale en nasies oor die hele aarde voor een wetenskaplike “koninklike” geldmag god se mag gebuig het…voorloper van Antichris.

Hennie Mouton

Daan Malan, dankie vir jou skrywe, maar kan jy al 6 my vrae kortliks antwoord? Jy hoef nie verduidelikings te gee nie. So terloops, ek het die 1000 jr-vrederyk nie letterlik ‘n 1000 jr lank genoem nie, en ek noem ook nie die woord “wegraping” nie.

Gideon Aggenbag

1. Die 1000 jr-vrederyk is reeds – tussen Jesus se 1ste en 2de koms.

2. Die 7 jaar van die 70ste sewetal was rondom 70 nC toe Jerusalem verwoes is en die gelowiges die berge in moes vlug.

3. Die finale antichris kom vóór die wederkoms.

4. Die gelowiges wat in Christus gesterf het, sal opstaan en saam met die gelowiges wat nog op aarde leef op daardie tydstip, en Jesus tegemoet vaar in die wolke met Sy wederkoms.

5. Die finale oordeel sal direk ná die wederkoms, by die einde van die 1000 jr-vrederyk, wees.

6. Die Bybel ken nie van Jesus se geestelike/aardse koninkryk nie, daarom het dit nodig om nader omskryf te word vir ons verstaan/bespreking.

Hennie Mouton

Oom Gideon, dankie vir die antwoorde. Een van my grootste probleme met ons nou in die 1000 jr-vrederyk, is Opb 20:2 en 3. Maar ons kan op e-pos verder daaroor gesels.

Gideon Aggenbag

Hennie Mouton, kan jy asb. ‘n idee gee met watter Skrifgedeelte(s) jy die totstandkoming van (die staat) Israel in verband bring?

Hennie Mouton

Oom Gideon, dit is gedeeltelik vervat in my skrywe “Die Ou Testament en die 1000 jr-vrederyk”. Ek e-pos dit vir Oom.